Didn't I say that people ALWAYS say they won't attack the church but they always do? :-)
.-= Natasha´s last blog ..http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/typepad/1216614478s21580/becoming_something/~3/UO5BE7GcXRs/addictions-excommunication.html" rel="nofollow">Pondering addictions and excommunication and salvation *updated* =-.

I love it, I love it, I love it!!!! Good for you!!!

I am sorry to see you had to go through that. We still need to talk. I know it would help. :-)
.-= Steph´s last blog ..http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/TheDailyBlarg/~3/GIA1C7LIVcI/we-interrupt-our-regularly-scheduled.html" rel="nofollow">We Interrupt Our Regularly Scheduled Posting... =-.

Natasha, perhaps they do this because they realize it's NOT RIGHT. Something is OFF here. Nothing justifies the issues I mentioned in my post. My heart tells me the church is wrong and NOT true. I can't say nothing, especially when my family gets attacked. And I speak out of love and concern for my friends - this church has some serious flaws that are NOT being dealt with, therefore it IS flawed and by not addressing such flaws, our leaders ARE leading us astray. Besides, JESUS CHRIST is MY leader, I shouldn't NEED prophets and stake presidents and bishops to go through. That's no better than the Catholic ladder, it's just disguised as "truer" within the LDS church. And no, I don't say this because I'm under "Satan's grasp". I say this because I have courage to speak up about what's right and wrong.

I remember when I lived in Utah I was working one morning had my travel coffee mug and a girl stopped by my desk her big gulp in hand and she lectured me about coffee. I said to her your big gulp has more caffeine then my coffee....etc...Sorry you are being judged.

Gabrielle, these are some tough issues and questions that you are dealing with. Are there flaws in the Church? Yeah, it is run by men who aren't perfect. Whether it be bishops or higher up, mistakes are going to happen.

But the gospel is true. That is something I believe. That regardless of mistakes that go on by mortal error, I do believe that Joseph Smith was called of God and that the ordinances of the gospel will help me obtain eternal life. That is my point of view.

I do not believe that gays should be shunned or that blacks were unrighteous in the pre-existence. I think that was human error. The doctrine at least.

It is difficult when there are questions, and your bishop had no right to advise that. Honestly. So it is ok to be mad.

I'll comment more later. Or you can e-mail me. Either or.

Gabrielle,
I feel bad you went through what you did. To have the bishop say that would be extremely hard.
I can't agree with your positions on the church. That's completely different than I know to be true.
I respect you, think you're a great writer and you make me laugh. I hope to keep seeing you on Twitter and Facebook, as long as we're not debating or the church is getting trashed.

I completely agree with you that the bishop was in the wrong, and I'm glad to hear that your husband did the right thing and stood by you and your family.

That said and I hope I won't offend anyone by pointing this out, but) your reasoning is a bit off:

I can’t believe that a God or Christ would EVER justify this sort of thought pattern. Or inspire a leader to advise ripping a family apart in order to keep the “One True Church” intact. In fact, didn’t Christ wander the countryside with his followers? He didn’t even HAVE a “church”. He was sort of a nomad who went around sharing his miracles and helping people.

Actually (according to the NT) Jesus specifically advised people to leave their families in order to follow him. As far as we have any record of what Jesus said, Jesus never encouraged people to put their family before their faith and commitment to God.
.-= chanson´s last blog ..http://lfab-uvm.blogspot.com/2010/02/nothing-will-make-me-stop-believing-in.html" rel="nofollow">"Nothing will make me stop believing in String Theory!" =-.

It sounds like you've gone through a lot of upheavals and changes. I'm not here to argue or convince, but I have to point out that the Church is not spending tithing money on the City Creek Center 'mall'. All the money comes from Property Reserve, which is the real estate arm of the Church; it is not funded by tithing.

I just hope you remember the chruch may be flawed (iv accepted that all churches are) and I do believe the church teaches us to question to find out for ourselves as smith did...anyway just don't forget there are lots of good compasionate caring members as well. who don't always agree with there church but love it anyway

Gabrielle, there are always two ways to view something and then there's the truth. The truth almost never completely aligns with either view point.

It's highly unlikely that everything you are reading is true. As well, you're only looking for explanations that support your own perspective. I could give you alternative explanations that are very logical.

As well, you are being hypocritical in judging things you don't know about when you hate it when people judge other people they know about. The mall for example. I know nothing about the mall so I'm going to give you the benefit of believing that the church spent a billion dollars building a mall. (Or was it buying a mall? I don't know because you didn't share enough information.) Do you know why they did that? Do you know what they do with the revenue? Do you have any idea how much revenue a mall would generate? Are there any self-sufficiency reasons why the church would want to own a mall? You don't know the answers to any of these questions and to state so authoritatively that it's wrong is childlike. Perhaps the church wanted a stream of revenue that didn't have to come from the pockets of members of the church. Perhaps their investment would only take five or ten years to start bringing in a huge stream of revenue that would then be used to help people in some future disaster we can't foresee.

There are alternative explanations for everything.

I know members of the church who are about five times more brilliant than you or I and they are the people I go to when I have questions (and oh, I do) because if I'm going to leave the church I'm not going to do it based on emotion or arrogance of opinion or the childlike inability to see more than direct correlations. I'm going to exhaust every explanation. You haven't done that. That's your perogative; maybe you have a different standard for the compass that guides you than I do for me. I look at members I know who are steeped in knowledge of church history and doctrine as well as steeped in knowledge of the world and I think, maybe they know something that I don't. And more importantly, I ask. I know many people with good reasons to want to leave the church. You know that I have them. Many things about my life and choices and inclinations would be easier if I just left the church. I would live very differently than I do now, so what is it that ties me to the church? Fear? Not really. If you were to read my most recent post you would see that I don't have a lot of fear about things. It's a deep knowing that I can't shake, though I have tried to at times.

You state that this and that is wrong and I do understand your emotion and I do relate to your emphatic style of writing but there is hubris in it. Because there are different degrees of wrong for one thing; something can be wrong because it's evil, innocent, confused, or simply fallen from perfection because it's subject to entropy. You sound like you're asserting the worst kind of wrongness and IT'S JUST YOUR OPINION. You think you know that it's wrong but I think I know that it's right. You feel a certain way but I feel a certain way. What makes you think that you're so much smarter or more intuitive than I? When I assert things on my blog I try to sprinkle a lot of "I believes" or other methods to communicate that this is my opinion and I acknowledge that there are non-Mormons reading it. I think I do a good job, too, because I have atheists and non-Mormons as regular blog readers who comment with praise. Your writing doesn't come off this way and you are going to quickly turn off a lot of people not because of your beliefs but because of the way you're communicating them. It's obnoxious. I want you to know that if I distance myself from you or if other people do it won't be because you are the ex-Mormon leper and we're so weak-minded that we can't handle you. I have ex-Mormon friends and I have friends who think the church is whack. It will be because of your mode of communicating. I understand the need to vent, I really do. But understanding and being sympathetic doesn't make reading stuff like this less grating or exhausting. I'm wont to avoid it altogether.
.-= Natasha´s last blog ..http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/typepad/1216614478s21580/becoming_something/~3/UO5BE7GcXRs/addictions-excommunication.html" rel="nofollow">Pondering addictions and excommunication and salvation *updated* =-.

I woke up this morning to see an email of your latest post, and I can't shake this terrible feeling I recieved from reading it. We all have a time in our life when we question things, but you do it so harshly. I was told by a member once that when we have questions that can't always be answered we should put it on a shelf in our mind and save it for later...one day you will receive your answers to all your questions. Your Heavenly Father loves you and your family. Have faith in him. I have known bishops that have made the wrong decisions and I do believe yours has done the same. I am not the perfect example of a textbook member, but my foundation is strong, and for that reason I know that the church is true. We were never told this life would be easy, only that it would be worth it.
Let go of the gay issue. Our church is not against gays as a people. Homosexuality is something we feel is a sin, this I believe. Do I believe gay people were born that way? Yes I do. It is their choice to live that lifestyle, and yes it is a heavy burden to bear, but I know members who are gay and do not act on it. Our church stands in the fight to protect marrige. Getting married is not the same thing as love. Love who you want, but that doesn't mean you can get married.
I feel that you are very sensitive, and I applaud you for saying what's on your mind. But this decision your family is making will not bring you the peace of mind you are searching for. This I can promise you. I know it can be hard, but I promise you, this church is true. Joseph smith was a true prophet, and he did help restore the true church. I am thankful for the gospel and all the comfort it gives me. My family is blessed, things aren't always perfect but that's life. I know that all my questions will be answered with time, as will yours. Good luck.

Natasha,
First of all, I WANT this to be true. How do you think it would feel to have everything you've been "taught" turn out to be a lie. Yeah, I'm a little emotional. We feel sick, exhausted, emotionally shot and devastated. There have been a lot of tears and sadness, Natasha. I WOULD NOT say these things UNLESS I honestly felt this church is NOT true. I was married in the temple and wore garments, paid tithing, EVERYTHING. For six years. This is not a light decision, Natasha. I joke, I try to make light on my blog (on purpose), but I *DO* have some intellect. I can read. I know what's "anti-mormon" and likely quite biased and what's not (such as Church history journals, lds.org, scriptures, discourses, BYU scholars who do extensive research, etc). I chose to use legitimate, even church published, resources to find answers. For example, I have not and likely never WILL read the View of the Hebrews. Because books can and do sound alike. That's just a given and it does NOT make The Book of Mormon false.

If there is any truth to the Bible and Christ, consider this: it would be Satan's slickest trick to create a church which appeared to be the one true church but which led people away from the truth in such subtle ways as polygamy, discrimination, racism, sexism, political power, false prophets and paying tithing to an already 100 Billion dollar enterprise. That would be quite slick, eh? And you CAN'T *know*, Natasha, just because it feels good or feels right. That's still *JUST* YOUR opinion, just as I have mine. And I WANT the truth. I don't want to follow the wrong path.

A month ago I was still under the impression that it was only the members which were not in line with the Church not necessarily the leaders.

Do not presume to understand how devastating and emotional this has been for our family: I feel devastated. Likewise, my husband's ENTIRE LIFE revolved around his faith. We DID consult wise answers, both for and against the church. It says something that even my husband, who REALLY believed it ALL would leave. So, you may call me childish in my anger or disagree with my way of expressing such but it STILL doesn't make the things the church does RIGHT. I am not on trial here.
We are presented something in a nice, tidy box and told never to look outside the box and we're told the box is black and white when in fact it is in vibrant color and it's not a box at all. Our church has changed and branded itself to fit a mold to gain membership. It's no different than John Edwards telling us he was devoted and committed to his wife, who was dying of cancer, when he was having an affair on the side, all the while accepting money from those who believed what he was saying was the absolute truth and who supported him in his run for President.

Now, about "what we're taught". Think about that for a moment. What ARE we being taught and by whom? If these ARE prophets, then why did the early prophets make prophecies and the later ones start saying "we just don't know the answers". That doesn't make sense, Natasha. Brigham Young taught that Adam was God and that polygamy was a commandment and that Shakers lived on the moon and in the sun. No joke. Those are false teachings, Natasha. False. There is no excuse and no one gives a straight answer except that A) Brigham Young WAS a Prophet and B) we do not support the Adam God theory because it's wrong, we do not support polygamy because it's wrong and yeah, we know now that Shakers don't live on the moon and in the sun, but Young was STILL a Prophet, none the less. Even though there is no hard FACT which shows he ever should have taken the church reigns except that a group of men "felt" that it was probably okay that he led the church on from that point. And, in fact, many DID NOT feel comfortable with this and left "knowing" something wasn't right, just like many left "knowing" something wasn't right about polygamy, so why were they wrong and the others right when they received the same sorts of impressions?

Miracles, healing, feeling the spirit and other such phenomena are documented THROUGHOUT THE WORLD, outside the LDS church. So you CANNOT use that as the REASON you and other "wise" men are right. You must throw those feelings as evidence because they are NOT singular to the LDS church. Those other religions also "KNOW" their church is true because they, too, get those good "Holy Ghost" vibes and feelings.

Step outside the box a moment and ask why our church will not disclose its financial statements. Why doesn't tithing actually go towards helping the poor and needy (it doesn't). In fact it goes towards building temples, wards, large investments, etc. And yes OUR TITHING ALLOWED this church's financial ability to be able to purchase such chains as the Marriott and Beneficial Life and the 3+ billion dollar shopping mall near temple square. Now, in the event of a true catastrophy, it's unlikely anyone will purchase those investments from them at that time (imagine a group of investors meeting in a conference room to sign paperwork to purchase the Marriott chain shortly after an asteroid hits the earth).
Now, donations ARE made to charity to show they are doing something good, but it's hardly 3 billion dollars cash. In fact, LEGITIMATE SOURCES estimate the LDS church gives less than 1% of its wealth to charity yet while members are taught they will be damned and burned at the second coming if they do not continue to pay their tithing. I want to pay my tithing to a charity which uses 100% towards charity. WHERE IS THE OTHER 99%, Natasha? Ford donates more than 1%!

The FACT is that THE LDS CHURCH IS AN ESTIMATED 100+ BILLION DOLLAR CORPORATION WHICH DOES NOT *NEED* ANYMORE MONEY. It could survive and provide for its members on interest alone! In fact, just like the Perpetual Education fund, NONE of the principle is paid to help people. Only the interest. The LDS church could NEVER accept another tithe again and still THRIVE and be one of the richest entities on the face of the earth. It's like paying Bill Gates 10% of your income forever. He doesn't NEED that money, Natasha. People are struggling and filing bankruptcy and denying their children medical care, food and clothes so they can pay their tithing. Christ would want those people to feed and clothe their children and give them medical care.
Now, unless EVERY Bishop complies and GIVES THAT MONEY BACK TO THE MEMBERS EACH TIME THEY ASK, collecting such tithing under such guilt trips IS WRONG. Those Bishops are NOT inspired by God, then, when they speak of self reliance principles, and then deny helping those who DO pay their tithing. There are HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of examples of men and women paying their tithing and being DENIED help by this 100 Billion dollar church entity. That's GREED, Natasha. That's WRONG.

Back to Bill Gates. If you give him money under the impression that he's going to give it to charity and he DOESN'T and uses that money or, excuse me, "interest" on that money (so that it's technically NOT tithing dollars which were used for the initial investment) to purchase huge conference centers and giant shopping malls and condo buildings, that's STILL not right. I know you believe you are wiser than me on this principle, Natasha but the FACT is we are being LIED to about where this money is really going. And instead of setting things straight, the FACT is that the church DOES NOT disclose its financial statements so until it does I don't trust its intentions when SO many people in this world are starving and in need of help. You'd think they'd come out and tell people so as not to have more people fall away, Natasha. Why NOT settle the question and just disclose the information if there is nothing to hide? Why would God "test" us that way? That 3 Billion+ dollar "investment" will not get a return profit for YEARS. They won't get that money back, Natasha. Not for YEARS AND YEARS. The church does not pay taxes and it makes these purchases as cash. So that's 3 Billion + dollars sitting there, Natasha, when it could be helping people. That's NOT right.

The church then turns around and tells such stories as the single mother of six paying her tithing before anything else - even allowing her electricity to be shut off (true conference talk). There are countless conference talks with such examples as a poor mother not buying her children shoes so she could pay her tithing and trust in the Lord. That's child NEGLECT, Natasha. The church doesn't NEED her money - she should be ALLOWED to go buy her children some shoes, FREE OF GUILT.

Do you see the absurdity and warp in "what we are taught"? Or what about the story of the couple who melted their gold fillings to help build a temple in Argentina (another conference talk). THE CHURCH DIDN'T NEED THEIR GOLD FILLINGS, Natasha. It has enough money. God's true church would have allowed those people to keep their fillings, free of guilt. And many members would have agreed with God - let them keep their fillings when the LDS church already has 100+ billion dollars to work with. Please. Really. We didn't NEED their fillings or for them to go through that guilt trip. God didn't need their gold fillings if they'd simply thought of giving them, he'd have known their heart and their intent.

Yet "we're taught" to pay tithing above all else or we'll be burned at the second coming.

Natasha, the bible was written YEARS after those events took place. Could it be, perhaps, that MEN inserted those sorts of guilt-ridden statements and NOT the Lord? Wise men would tell you this is a very logical explanation. Tithing wasn't even tithing back then, it was more like sharing your ox or cow so people could have milk or perform labor. The New Testament was written some 40-80 years after the events took place. The first five books of the Old Testament were written around 1450 BC, composed by four unknown authors with differing writing styles. If the flood truly was 6000 years ago, a lot can be lost in translation, Natasha. It might NOT be a FACT that it was "written by God". Yet, "we're taught" it was.

Those Bishops we entrust DON'T ALWAYS help out when needed. In fact I have experienced this FIRST HAND. We'd always faithfully tithed and at that point had NEVER been on welfare. Ever. It was the first time we'd asked for help. Our Bishop clearly said "i can help you with your food but I will not pay your bills". QUOTE. And yet the church has all this money they should spare. THAT'S WRONG, Natasha. It's NOT "childish" of me to share this and of course I'm emotional about it. I paid into that system FOR YEARS. My money HAS NOT gone where I believed it was going. And I would have still paid that money because I am not greedy - I just wish now I would have given it to a charity which used 100% to help the people in need.

This just touches on a small pinpoint of my issues with the One True Church which is either "all true or it's all a fraud". "We're taught" there IS no middle ground. So when I find out THERE IS a middle ground for the church, but we members aren't allowed the same middle ground standard, there is something off kilter there.

Why all the emphasis on being true, anyway? If it WERE true, Natasha, it just WOULD BE. There would be firm proof. God would not have to take away golden plates, etc. Example: The Jews were able to hold on the tablets with the 10 commandments for generations.

Now, I was ready to give the benefit of the doubt. I did this for YEARS. And now I see that this church is like any other, it's simply disguised under the title of "the one true church". It has enormous political power, wealth, and almost fanatical control over its members which will do just about ANYTHING to uphold it against criticism.

Something is off there, Natasha. Christ would not care about building million dollar temples or buying insurance companies or having Apostles sit on the board of directors for these companies, which in turn provide them with generous bonuses and stock options. Stock options, Natasha. I urge you to view the reports from the UK (where the church legally HAS to disclose their finances in order to operate there) and see that the money they take in and what they give to charity is NOT the picture they paint for members.

In the end, I have every right to share my opinion when I honestly believe we're being taken advantage of in the name of the Lord. I now, after careful research from wise sources, feel we've been lied to and that's wrong, Natasha. Many wise men will agree we've been lied to. Many practicing Mormons even agree there is probably not a lot of truth to it but opt to stay. Many, like I, chose to leave.

Now, is there some good within the church? Yes. Of course. There is some good in ALL churches. The "abominable" Catholic church even discloses its financial statements showing what the money went to. So do the Lutherans. So do the Protestants. So why does the LDS church hide their financial statements, if there is nothing to hide, Natasha?

I began to see things in a different light. I wiped the slate clean and chose to weigh all the evidence before making my decision. In this light I can clearly see how each conference talk is molded to teach obedience, tithing, fear, guilt. Follow the mold, do as we say. Or else you'll be damned and burned at the second coming. What about free agency? Why can't we give a full tithe to a charity of our choice that uses 100% on such charity, so long as at the end of the year we can show those receipts to the Bishop?

Lots of people have disagreements, but I now don't believe there is a group "out to get" the Mormons. I used to. I now I believe there is a group who so see that this is a powerful cult whose members will uphold leaders before all else and which is not at all forthcoming or honest about its finances or history that they are trying to warn others and help them see this light.

Pay attention on the next conference about how much focus there is on this blind faith, "church is true" obedience.

Now, I DID NOT come to these conclusions in a childish way. If you don't want to read my blog or associate with me online: you get that choice. I'm not and never have forced you to read my blog.

I HAVE exhausted every explanation for the churches behavior, the changes to history, the false prophecies, etc. I have searched, trying to find a sliver of solid evidence all the while believing it and simply thinking these men must have just been off key. I have no problem with blind faith. I have a problem with blind faith when you give it to an organization which is less than honest in it's behavior, history and teachings. I'd love it to be true. The evidence is not there. Even the bible has *SOME* evidence. I could just have easily been in this spot with the Seventh Day Adventists or the Jehovahs Witnesses, which you will likely immediately say are wrong. What makes the LDS church so right, then? NONE of these offshoots of Christianity have solid proof. Heck, even Christianity doesn't have MUCH solid proof. And they ALL get those feel good feelings and blessings, etc.

Ironically, I HAVE been praying and these are the answers I am getting. I must follow my heart and instincts and impressions, just as you will. It's quite exhausting for me, too. I'm wont to just move and leave this town and start fresh and new with no LDS influence. Because the first thing people ask when they see us is "what ward are you in" and to say we've left means instant judgement. You can't say that's not what happens, because it does. It's not something I'm looking forward to. This has been gut wrenching for me, Natasha.

Gabrielle

Oh my gosh, Gabby, do you really think that I'm going to read all this?

1) It's really, really, really long.
2) Some of it is crap and it's from anti-Mormon sources who are invested in tearing down the church.
3) Why do you keep saying my name a bazillion times? It sounds really patronising.
4) I didn't say you were childish. Go back and read. I said childlike, on purpose, and there's a different connotation to it.
5) I've heard a lot of this stuff before. I don't care. If I wanted to read all these assertions I would do that. Your comment/blog is not the only place to do that. Do you really think that I'm so innocent and dumb that I've never heard any of this before?
6) We pay tithing for ourselves, not for the church. There are a lot of good reasons why the church doesn't just solve all the world's problems with its money. Some reasons are spiritual and some are political. Did you really not know that the the church uses tithing to produce church materials that we can buy at cost, to produce garments that we can buy cheaply, to pay for all sorts of salaries for writers and artists and magazine editors, for churches and temples? I knew that already.
7) My main point was that while this is gut wrenching, if you keep venting in this manner you will lose friends, not because of the information but because of how you are going about it. If you were presenting all this info and were open to discussion, people would keep reading and replying. Keep going about it like this and the members you've been friends with will drop like flies. One of your friends emailed me today and thanked me for my comment saying that it was especially what I said about your manner of communicating that was right on the mark. And you know that church members are not going to keep reading this anyway, so why not take it all over to the exMormon forums? Because you want to share this important info so that we will be aware of our participation in this evil church? Didn't you say that you wouldn't do that and didn't I say that everyone says the same thing? Is it possible that you're falling along Satan's well-worn path? Reading all the same false or half-true stuff that he wants you to read?

Funny how God gave you different answers before and now these answers. Tricky God.
.-= Natasha´s last blog ..http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/typepad/1216614478s21580/becoming_something/~3/UO5BE7GcXRs/addictions-excommunication.html" rel="nofollow">Pondering addictions and excommunication and salvation *updated* =-.

Natasha,
You are SO proving my point about the shunning process. Wow. Not only were you rude, but belittling for having a different opinion. Whereas I took my time writing my response to you in love to share what I now believe is a cult.
These are my opinions on my own blog. I'm not in blogging for the friends or stats, though I do enjoy twitter and blogging as a way to vent or journal. I don't post stats and such on my blog because that's not what its about for me. If lds members drop like flies after I share my opinions that's up to them. If they want to e mail you after I make a post, that's okay, too. If they decide to interact in the future I'll be kind and welcoming all the same. My point is that true friends will love me despite what I say or which religion I affiliate with because they know my heart (much like Christ). If they drop like flies then perhaps they weren't true friends to begin with - and I was already fairly certain that would happen, in some way, and not afraid of it whatsoever. I felt strong enough in my convictions to run the risk of potentially ALL readers never reading my blog again. And I believed it was worth it to share what I believe now to be true. Because it wasn't about my blog. It was about finding truth and supporting it.
The information/questions I have are NOT from crap sources, unless you consider the lds.org website, scriptures, and discourses from Prophets to be crap. The answers I've found are not from a bunch of people out to get the Mormons. These are honest questions/issues that need addressed and I found answers in church publishings like the Ensign, Fair LDS, Discourses, scriptures, lds.org, etc because my church leaders would not fully address them.
Thanks for the support.

I didn't read this whole thing but one thing VERY important to me I want to point out. The Leaders you talk about are also human too. Therefore they are given to make flaws. Yes our Bishops are not perfect, Yes some leaders had bad ideas. They are human.
As for the chruch being a billion dollar company. For a company they do alot of good. All the relief aid we provide. They paid for my mental health care when we had no insurance, they provided my husbands family with food when money was tight. Yes they are not going to pay to get anyone out of bankruptcy nor should they. We did that to ourselves. And I say that as I am currently watching my parents file bankruptcy and loose all they spent 40 years building. Its sad its hard its emotional but they did it to themselves because they spent outside there means. You once admitted you guys bought a house outside your means. (though I don't blame you entirely for that since there were other circumstances and loan companies are sharks) but, you still own some responsibility for that and quite honestly I get upset when the chruch does pay for peoples bankruptcy. Regardless what you need to remember is they did offer to provide you guys with food. That is MORE then a lot of other church's. Be grateful for that. That being said Yes maybe they could have helped more. And Yes in my opinion your Bishop is a jerk and the person who blabbed on you is even worse. But not all members are like that and not all leaders are like that. Some Mormons and our leaders are good people too.

And I hope this doesn't come across as too harsh. I am being very honest about how I feel about this as well. It is upsetting to see good people treated the way you were and are but it is also upsetting to feel something you love dearly and has given you (me) strength is being attacked. You dont have to like all the church does, You can even hate it. But I beg of you to remember those the church as done good for. And that it is something sacred to many people and therefore should be handled with respect and care.

I care about you and want the best for you and your family. Maybe the chruch isn't right for you guys. I hope you find what you need. and I will continue to secretly hope you find out way back to the chruch. Not because it is is true, but because I have seen the good it has done for me. Even if you don't I will still care about you! that doesn't change because of your religion.

Not because of what you're saying but HOW you're saying it. Why would they be interested? They could like you but not like your conversation. They could love you but be tired of your tirades.

Really? So cite all your sources, then. Cite your sources for Brigham Young's people-on-the-moon teachings and cite your sources for how much money the church has and what they do with it, etc. Cite all of them. That's the responsible thing to do.

I'm not proving your point about the shunning process. You are being shrill, sarcastic, patronising, long-winded, and in response I am being exasperated. I spoke to you the exact same way I speak to friends or blog readers who comment and want to argue. Everything you are saying is argumentative. I spoke Natasha-like and I don't know why you'd expect any thing different.

When you were humble with your message on Facebook, I responded in kind, with support (and you said nothing in response). All I've proven here is what I said earlier: If you keep speaking this way, tearing down the church, and keep speaking as though people who don't believe what you believe are idiots, then people will react in human ways. Because they're human.

It was a warning, because I care about you, that you might want to tone it down a notch.
.-= Natasha´s last blog ..http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/typepad/1216614478s21580/becoming_something/~3/UO5BE7GcXRs/addictions-excommunication.html" rel="nofollow">Pondering addictions and excommunication and salvation *updated* =-.

LC, I respect your opinion. Really, I do. I know you think it's what's right. But because of the high rate of suicide of gays I feel it's important to stand up for this point:
Most, if not all of the Prophets teachings have been proven inconsistent. That's a fact. So imagine if the prophet said that cloning organs is wrong and God does not approve of it. We as good Latter-day Saints would not consider getting organs cloned even if a loved one's life depended on it. Now what if in 20 years or so public opinion changes enough to where cloning of organs is socially acceptable (sounds a little like polygamy or black priesthood prophecies, right?) and the next prophet says that cloning organs is OK. Well it's a little late now for the person that followed the current prophet to save his loved one.

My heart goes out to the gay people in the church. The church leaders have taught that feeling that way is wrong, immoral and totally a choice made per the individual. As scientists learn more about how our brains work, it's apparent that there is a genetic predisposition to homosexuality in many people. The leaders often make these people feel as if they have no hope and are destined for damnation. Many gay people in the church have committed suicide as a result of our leaders' teachings which seem to be in conflict with science.

So it's very important, perhaps even life-threatening, to be able to know when a prophet is speaking for God and when he is merely giving his own opinion. But to many faithful, it's more important to follow the prophet than it is for the prophet to be right. This is so dangerous when they cannot even answer many simple questions about their own conflict and change regarding so many of their teachings.

I have to wonder who has been teaching you all these years.
You talk about in your post that if you don't pay your tithing or other things that you will burn in the second coming. Excuse me? Who ever told you that?!? That is retarded. The only people who will be burned at the second coming are the truely wicked, which not paying your tithing does not make you, so you can put away your tanning lotion.
I can see why you might find it shady that the church does not release it's financial statements. But why should they? So more people can scrutinize us? The church is selective on what we make public for that very reason. Do you tell strangers how much money your family brings in? Probably not. The Church is not a corporation. It is not for public trade. The oodles and oodles of money we have all goes to good works. All of it. I don't care if we bought a mall. Good for us. You said the mall was in Temple Square? Have you considered the thought that the church maybe wants to keep Temple Square pretty darn, well pretty, and pure. If the church owns the mall, then they decide what types of stores are in that mall. Is this weird? Maybe, but is it awful and terrible, no. The church is diligent in keeping holy places holy, and I support them in this. I think there is so much smut out in the world, that a little purity would do everyone some good. So if the church already owns the sidewalks around Temple Square, then owning a mall seems the next step. Did you watch that Prop 8 movie about the church? It drives me bonkers that people blame the LDS church for the passing of Prop 8. Again we are only fighting for marrige. Be gay, whatever. We will still love you, as a church. I cannot speak for people's individual families, but I know that we are taught to love homosexuals in church. I do not get into my theories on homosexuality too much, because I never want to offend anyone. I have a testimony of the LDS church, and I have a plethora of gay friends.
I have been told a few reasons regarding polygamy. That it was neccesary because all these women were left without a husband because people were dying, or that it was a test for the Saints. Honestly, I gotta say that it seems like it was the quickest way to grow the church. Is that the truth? I don't know, but does it really matter? No. Just like the Catholic church doesn't still have to defend itself against the Inquisition, why is the LDS church still having to defend itself on it's past. It's sort of annoying.
I don't know you personally, but how was the church not doing it's best to help you regarding your financial situation? The church does ask members to tithe always, unless you absolutely cannot. How you determain that is by sitting down with your bishop. The church can provide food and clothes for you and your children. That is how we help you pay your tithing. So yes, you can still pay your tithing and still clothe and feed your kids.
Look, part of any religion is having some faith in it. You keep going on about if God really wanted eveyone to do this or that why wouldn't he just tell us straight out. What you are describing is Lucifer's plan, not the Plan of Salvation. The foundation of this church is built on choice and accountablity, and our free agency. If everything was told to us, how would we be able to chose on our own? We would simply be robots, and what is the point in that?
I feel for you, I really do. My mom is agnostic. My dad is a convert. They have been married almost thirty years. My mom writes my father's tithing checks. My dad goes to the temple at least once a month. My mom is the nicest person I know, and she does not believe in the church. I once asked my dad how he felt about not being sealed to my mom, if it upset him. He simply said, "No, because I know that it will be done for us." Nothing can shake his faith in the Lord, and this church, not even the fear that he is not connected to the love of his life after this life. That always gives me strength. I struggle with my identity with being LDS. I admitt to having both feet in two buckets. I cannot move forward until I chose the life I want to live. Not being a member would make my life much easier, but I simply cannot deny the truth. This life is a test, I may not get an A, but I know I can pass with a C. So even if I am not perfect, that does not mean I'm screwed.
In the end, I really think your family had lousy luck. You got stuck with a retarded bishop, and you seem to have some stick in the mud members in your stake. I want you to know, that it's not like that everywhere. I am honest about my shortcomings, and I don't always agree with everything, but the members in my stake still love me. I'm sorry it was not that same for you. BUT, I can say without a doubt that your Heavenly Father does love you, and even though I have never met you, so do I.

You sort of just say the same things over and over again.

The church does recognize that the leaders are simply human, and there is a way of going about it when they make a mistake. He's called your stake president, and so forth...

There is such thing as literally burning and spiritually burning. I have read the scriptures, and I stand by what I say. We tithe because it makes us feel good, and we recieve blessings when we give of ourselves. I have never been bullied into tithing.
People have committed suicide, and they will continue to committ suicide. There is nothing you can do to change that.

Look, I'm going to be frank with you. There are certain things that I feel in my mind might have been misinterpreted during revolation. I feel that a lot of times members shield themselves from anything that is not revolving around the church. They only watch certain things, hang out with certain people, etc etc etc. I think they do this for a few reasons. First, they feel more comfortable around members, and second, it is safer. Not everyone can be like me. (everyone should be so lucky...totally kidding, maybe...) I can be around anyone or anything, read what I want, watch what I want, do what I want and it's never going to change my belief in this church. Ever. I want you to know, that I pray about things, and if I get the answer that my way is ok I do it. This church is not a cult, anyone can leave when they like, as did you.
I really enjoy your blog, I hope to continue to see where the road takes you and your family. Please do not be offended by my words. Let's just agree to disagree.
.-= LC´s last blog ..http://confessionsofamap.blogspot.com/2010/02/remembering-jd-salinger.html" rel="nofollow">Remembering J.D. Salinger =-.

Girl, I love you. You gotta follow your heart.

I was horribly hurt when I was getting a divorce by church leaders who told me NOT to get divorced or that the abuse was my fault ... and you know I'm still getting over it. It's just hard. It is hard to comprehend, it is hard to hear it from someone who you were taught to listen for -- and it doesn't matter how many alarms that go off in your head that it is wrong -- it just hurts and it is shocking.

I love ya. And I hope you can start to heal, in whatever direction that needs to be.
.-= Natalie´s last blog ..http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/thebobbypin/LWCo/~3/f_w9x_M5bss/pom-poms.html" rel="nofollow">Pom poms =-.

Oh Gabrielle...

I am so, so sorry that you have to deal with something as monumental as this. While I'm not an LDS member, and never plan to be, I cannot believe a church that identifies as Christian could be so un-Christlike towards its members. You're in my thoughts!

Gabrielle, I'm so sorry that you are going through this. I'm sorry that you've been so hurt. You are in my thoughts and prayers. I spent 20 years away from the church, and I remember all those hurt feelings. I remember the anger. I remember the frustration. I remember the feeling of being wronged. I remember the bitterness. Those are very real feelings, and no one can understand them until they've been there--and I've been there and back.

I'd like to ask you to do something, though. Step back, take three deep breathes, and ask yourself why you are so angry? It took me 20 years to figure it out. I hope it doesn't take you that long. If you are truly angry enough to leave the church, then maybe that's what is right for you. Religion is a very personal thing. Nobody can tell anyone else what to feel or what to believe. Nobody. People replying to your blog have tried, and you know how well that's working -- it's not. But remember that it goes both ways. You are not going to convince members of the church to leave the church because of what has happened to you. I truly hope that you find yourself and find something that makes you happy. I'm just not at all sure that what is going to make you happy is the public hostility to the church and trying to convince members that they are in a cult. I think that will be counter-productive to your family's happiness. I think what will make you happy is to move on with your life and find the life that you couldn't find in the church.

I want to commend your husband for standing by your side. I'm sure that this was very hurtful to him. I hope that your family will somehow find the joy in life that has been missing because of all your struggles. You have not had an easy time of it, that's for sure.

I love you.

Laurie

Thank you, Laurie.

Gabrielle,
Thank you for your courage in writing this post. I too found similar information online just a few months ago. Like some of your commenters I wanted to pretend that it didn't matter. I wanted to put it all on a "shelf" and forget about it. The trouble was my shelf ran out of room! When I really learned about early Church history and the true nature of polygamy, priesthood, first vision etc. there was no way I could go back to my naive view point that I had before.

Just like your husband I was a convert and the only member in my family. I made so many sacrifices to join the Church and to be a member. Now that I know that the truth was twisted from the beginning I am very upset about it. It makes me angry! I think you are totally justified in your anger. I'm glad that your husband puts his love for you above that of "the Brethren" in Salt Lake City. He is a good guy. I hope you can find peace and have a smooth transition with your journey.

My husband resigned from the Church at the same time I did as well. I don't think I could do it without his support. There are not enough perks in Mormonism for him to choose that over me, thankfully. We have lost a lot of close friends and his family has cut off contact with us completely. It has been very difficult but it doesn't change my decision. You have to do what is right for you and each person might come to a different conclusion. It is very possible that certain people who read your blog might be coming to the same realizations we have but they feel they have to toss them aside and put their doubts on a shelf because they really couldn't cope without the Church in their lives. It's hard to give up the only thing you know and believe in. For those people it might be right to stay with what they know. They likely have more to lose by leaving than what they would gain. For us, the opposite was true and it worked out to leave when we did. To each their own. Good luck sorting through this. :)